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Old 14-02-12, 23:33   #1
Arbiter Elegantiarum
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Default Suggestions/complaints/questions regarding moderating of the forum

Here is the topic where you can put any suggestions, complaints or questions regarding moderating of the forum and we, moderating stuff, we'll try to answer you.

Please only ask serious and well argumented questions/complaints etc. This is not a place to write posts with one line like "mods suck" or "rules of the forum are nazi", those will be deleted.

This is also not a place for currently banned users to come with duplicate account and argue with us about lifting their ban, if we find out you have created duplicate account, we'll delete it and prolong your ban so please do not try it.
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Old 15-02-12, 10:00   #2
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Moved post:
Quote:
Originally Posted by VicVance View Post
I still can't believe Achilles is gone I wanted to follow his pick for Milan game today

These new rules are too harsh in my opinion, if you will enforce them to full extent a lot of livescore posts can be deleted. Are the new rules the reason that yesterdays livescore thread was so empty?

And is there really a new forum for livescore, can someone send me a link to PM, thanks.
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Old 15-02-12, 10:13   #3
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And to answer VicVance, yes probably more posts will be deleted in livescore but that's up to users really, hopefully there will be not much rule breaking. Rules are tweaked in more strict way and will be enforced more strictly from now on since previous lenient approach(yes, it was lenient, contrary to many opinions) resulted in too many complaints about behavior in there/problems for us. Problems with livescore date back to it's creation, check out this thread from 2005: http://forum.bettingadvice.com/showthread.php?t=5147

We obviously do not want to ban everyone and will respectfully warn users who break the rules so that hopefully they can stop doing that.
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Old 15-02-12, 10:29   #4
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On the contrary, this new rules are excellent and more detailed than previous but why now? You could've established them years ago.

It's a mess now and lots of member's feelings are hurt hence the result.

It seems to me that someone was sleeping on the job and wanted to make some radical changes over night. It doesn't go that way.

Whether you like it or not Achilles was one of the pillars of Livescore thread and while it's no point of arguing anymore you should at least set everything to 0, unban certain members and execute new rules from that point on.

Livescore thread is a vital part of BA since it combines many things and serves also as a guide to other parts of the forum, it's where other online communities fail. If broken then this place is nothing more than an average forum.

At least I see it and felt it that way in the recent years.

Cheers
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Old 15-02-12, 11:00   #5
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Sincerely, I don't think BA management deserve my attention due to "communists approach", "dictatorial approach", but anyway...

Do you really think we are in 48-es, Stalin's "inform-biro" to shut up all free-minded people!

Terribly wrong!!! This is 21-st century where human rights are on the top, above all...
And you are breaking them big time...

You couldn't stop people asking why Achi was banned permanently bcs that is connected with betting- dislike many of members and many of mods and admins Achi was big contributor and lot of people here made good money following his picks.

This place is not kinder-garden for people like rege, moloz and blutman to come, waste time, bash and provoke some members- here great part of the members come to pick up some good picks, some newest info's, to make some money- there are people here who are betting big, with thousands of euros.. they need members like achi, like rado, like goxy who could help them survive, pay the bills, buy food for family... you could say people should not be that addicted from betting and you don't care about that, but they are and all we could do is to help them not to waste money through the wind, but to earn something from betting...

Members here do not care whether Achi have anger-problems(he has and we could only try to help him- not to ruin him with banning, not to ruin his whole life, life desperately connected with betting...)... they care when he, after hours and hours digging for Italian's info, will enter the live score and recommend, play this and this, don't play that and that...

And tell me what is more important, achi's dedication to contribution whole 7 years or Achi's anger problem(I don't want even to mention his last post- it was out-of-mind post, but that's not real achi and I'm sure he would like to apologize to arsenal and others for that post)...

Tell me how the hell you expect Loko not to curse- that's Loko, Loko is BA legend and no-one here feel offended with his cursing. On the contrary, Loko is BA trade-mark... but if you confront his cursing, and his contribution and knowledge about Belgian footy, what is more important...

I think(maybe is not that modestly said) I moved the things in live-score section(few months ago) asking from administration and from Terje, mods and admins to be more harsh, even cruel with some members bcs live score became worst then chit-chat section...

But I have asked mods to ban members who provoke, members who bash other members, members who are not polite with other members---> that members deserve instant-ban even without warning!!!

But you permitted here members like Blutman, Rege to ruin everything( I have warned you hundreds times, reported ten's times, start react, ban people like blutman and rege permanent, but you don't gave a sh**t to that warnings). And now you decided to show your "muscles" with banning Achiles permanently. Jesus Christ, it was so wrong move.

Members, not you have lost achiles and his contribution, members not you have lost my contribution and probably few others bcs we don't tolerate dictatorial behavior.
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Old 15-02-12, 11:04   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Morbius View Post
On the contrary, this new rules are excellent and more detailed than previous but why now? You could've established them years ago.

It's a mess now and lots of member's feelings are hurt hence the result.

It seems to me that someone was sleeping on the job and wanted to make some radical changes over night. It doesn't go that way.
We tried to be more lenient with livescore and allow members for more freedom(it doesn't mean everything was allowed there, we were still warning and banning people for racism and other stuff) but what we've got was heavy cursing, strong insults, fights were increasing in number and we have to finally stop this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morbius
Whether you like it or not Achilles was one of the pillars of Livescore thread and while it's no point of arguing anymore you should at least set everything to 0, unban certain members and execute new rules from that point on.
Believe me that, contrary to many of livescore users think, we really didn't want to ban Achilles. He's an excellent tipster, no doubt about it. That's why we've made numerous attempts to convince him to stop pushing the limits in livescore with heavy cursing and strong insults(even though we were lenient previously we still warned/banned many members who were doing this). Terje talked to him, CG did, DJ did, I did, many mods did. He was talked to more then anyone because we didn't want to ban him for good. He was also banned several times for few days/weeks and also for longer time but allowed to return with hope he'd change and it all failed to convince him to stop. It's not much more we can do really. Short 3 days ban(not and end of the world, is it?) for him for a racist post(calling black player monkey) was met with creating new account and this horrible post in which he himself essentially is asking for pernament ban:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
I got banned just because I said ''Burn in hell Alex and Fenerbahce''?

Are you kidding me you mother******* ArsenalHomo69!? Go move your f*cking lazy ass and write some new rules for BA Livescore thread , you didn't even bring proper rules c0cksucker! rules from 6 years ago , lol are you seriously kiddin me? YOU WERE NOT EVEN ACTIVE ABOUT THE AGES ON BA! Do you want a real reason to ban me? I HOPE YOU GET ANUS CANCER AND DIE IN THE PAIN!

Ah and Reggaeton and infamousmoloz ******* , I hope your mams gets raped by the horses since they are living with ******* on a moor you ugly low life bastards.

Now you have reason to ban me , F(U)CK YOU BA!
So what can we do more?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Morbius
Livescore thread is a vital part of BA since it combines many things and serves also as a guide to other parts of the forum, it's where other online communities fail. If broken then this place is nothing more than an average forum.

At least I see it and felt it that way in the recent years.

Cheers
I respect your opinion altough I disagree with it. I'm sure I could find you very positive opinions of many members back from times when there was no livescore and forum was growing very well without it. On the other hand there is lot of members who were active in the past but refuse to participate in livescore in the state that it was in recent years.
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Old 15-02-12, 11:30   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crishna View Post
Sincerely, I don't think BA management deserve my attention due to "communists approach", "dictatorial approach", but anyway...

Do you really think we are in 48-es, Stalin's "inform-biro" to shut up all free-minded people!

Terribly wrong!!! This is 21-st century where human rights are on the top, above all...
And you are breaking them big time...
Breaking human rights?

You are confusing something here if you call us communists. On the contrary this is privately owned forum(by Terje Grefstad), direct opposite of communism, and not a hyde park where you can say anything you want. Try to go into a privately owned night club and start making trouble, bouncer will kick you out etc. What's more some clubs won't even let you in if you are for example not dressed properly - and, paradoxically, THAT IS FREEDOM, that such places can exist. No one is somehow entitled to be a member of this forum regardless of how he behaves(that would be more communist) but also everyone is free to choose not to be a member of this forum or say that this forum sucks. That's not communism. But on the contrary of what you say, most of forum members have no problem with that.

Quote:
Members here do not care whether Achi have anger-problems(he has and we could only try to help him- not to ruin him with banning, not to ruin his whole life, life desperately connected with betting...)...

And tell me what is more important, achi's dedication to contribution whole 7 years or Achi's anger problem(I don't want even to mention his last post- it was out-of-mind post, but that's not real achi and I'm sure he would like to apologize to arsenal and others for that post)...
As I said previously, he's very good tipster indeed and we tried to help him, all admins, many mods exhchanged PM's with him, asking him to stop certain behavior, he was several times banned for short time and allowed to return in hope he'd change his ways. It all failed and became even worse with that last post.
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Old 15-02-12, 11:46   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arbiter Elegantiarum View Post

I respect your opinion altough I disagree with it. I'm sure I could find you very positive opinions of many members back from times when there was no livescore and forum was growing very well without it. On the other hand there is lot of members who were active in the past but refuse to participate in livescore in the state that it was in recent years.
I understand but I've been on and off so I only remember last two years.

Regarding Achilles, I haven't seen that post before and I must say that it is indeed brutal but to me it doesn't seem as something that a person under normal circumstances would produce. I know him as an entirely different person. Surely it was more of an uncontrolled outburst of emotions expressed with use of the strongest insulting language possible. A dark moment when you can't hold yourself back.

I'm sure and have heard that he is very very sorry but I guess there is no last "second" chance?
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Old 15-02-12, 12:00   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arbiter Elegantiarum View Post
... he was also banned several times for few days/weeks and also for longer time but allowed to return with hope he'd change and it all failed to convince him to stop. It's not much more we can do really. Short 3 days ban(not and end of the world, is it?) for him for a racist post(calling black player monkey) was met with creating new account and this horrible post in which he himself essentially is asking for pernament ban:
So what can we do more?
I couldn't talk about previous ban's since I'm active in live score some 3-4 months ago. But I can talk for recent ban's- try to analyze them and you will see that he was provoked big time by Rege and Moloz and you didn't protect him- this is essential question and I asked from you answer: "Why didn't you protect Achi from Rege and Moloz hundred times"
Why when you know that we are all different when opposing bashing and provocation- someone can stay calm someone get mad... and don't tell me he just had to put Rege on ignore list bcs he did it and after that all of the time Moloz have quoted Rege just Achi to be provoked again...

If you mention in rules that you can ban someone post-festum why don't you analyze once again all posts by Rege and Moloz and ban them permanent!!!

If you don't want to give a hand to achi and limited the ban to one month and ask apologize,for the god's sake you have to ban members who settled up Achi to be banned!
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Old 15-02-12, 12:13   #10
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And mister Arbiter, you didn't answer to two crucial questions:

Quote:
Originally Posted by crishna View Post
...This place is not kinder-garden for people like rege, moloz and blutman to come, waste time, bash and provoke some members- here great part of the members come to pick up some good picks, some newest info's, to make some money- there are people here who are betting big, with thousands of euros.. they need members like achi, like rado, like goxy who could help them survive, pay the bills, buy food for family... you could say people should not be that addicted from betting and you don't care about that, but they are and all we could do is to help them not to waste money through the wind, but to earn something from betting...

Members here do not care whether Achi have anger-problems(he has and we could only try to help him- not to ruin him with banning, not to ruin his whole life, life desperately connected with betting...)... they care when he, after hours and hours digging for Italian's info, will enter the live score and recommend, play this and this, don't play that and that...

And tell me what is more important, achi's dedication to contribution whole 7 years or Achi's anger problem(I don't want even to mention his last post- it was out-of-mind post, but that's not real achi and I'm sure he would like to apologize to arsenal and others for that post)...

Tell me how the hell you expect Loko not to curse- that's Loko, Loko is BA legend and no-one here feel offended with his cursing. On the contrary, Loko is BA trade-mark... but if you confront his cursing, and his contribution and knowledge about Belgian footy, what is more important...
I ask answer on this part...

Quote:
Originally Posted by crishna View Post
... but you permitted here members like Blutman, Rege to ruin everything( I have warned you hundreds times, reported ten's times, start react, ban people like blutman and rege permanent, but you don't gave a sh**t to that warnings). And now you decided to show your "muscles" with banning Achiles permanently. Jesus Christ, it was so wrong move...
I ask answer on this part...
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Old 15-02-12, 12:35   #11
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Being provoked is oldest excuse in the book really, we(admins, mods) many times kindly asked Achilles to not respond to anything he sees as provocations, to add users to ignore lists etc. Besides, anyone has to control himself, as what one sees as provocation, others can interpret in different way. And above all, we HAVE to control ourselves or else this place would become really horrible.

See you call me a communist, while in real life communists did a lot of evil to people I know so it's not a pleasant thing for me to read. Do you see me going on a big outburst, wishing you to die and calling you whatever insults I dream up?

Quote:
Originally Posted by crishna
... but you permitted here members like Blutman, Rege to ruin everything( I have warned you hundreds times, reported ten's times, start react, ban people like blutman and rege permanent, but you don't gave a sh**t to that warnings). And now you decided to show your "muscles" with banning Achiles permanently. Jesus Christ, it was so wrong move...
That is your opinion so not much I can answer here. Those members WERE warned as well when necessary.
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Old 15-02-12, 12:50   #12
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And he was asked to report the provocative posts, but all I ever saw in my mail were useless posts about Juve, Milan, etc
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Old 15-02-12, 12:51   #13
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can i ask here q's about achi's ban?
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Old 15-02-12, 13:03   #14
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I think this sudden persecution is excessive. I really don't know who complained so much about livescore thread that drew such drastic measures. Now people do not feel comfortable, and in a way you took the soul of this place. We're all different characters and that is the beauty of this place. If you want this to be a joyless impersonal place than you are on the right track. Of course I don't think we should be ruled by anarchy, but if the rules are implemented properly then there is no need for repression. Maybe we should look for reasons on both sides. We have so many moderators who are not able to protect members in the same way. Of course they are humans too , and occasionally they tend to take sides. All in all I think this is the wrong way to solve things..but hey, this is privately owned forum..
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Old 15-02-12, 13:19   #15
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Quote:
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Now people do not feel comfortable, and in a way you took the soul of this place. We're all different characters and that is the beauty of this place. If you want this to be a joyless impersonal place than you are on the right track.
No, as it's said in the rules, we just want it to be a place without racism, heavy insults, death wishes, fighting between members etc. If that's anyones idea of fun he should probably find another forum or chat. Others are welcomed to post, no one will delete or ban anyone for some lighthearted, friendly banter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by shicne
Of course I don't think we should be ruled by anarchy, but if the rules are implemented properly then there is no need for repression.
No one says there will be repression. There might be if someone behaves very bad and doesn't stop when asked. So it's up to all of us really.
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Old 15-02-12, 13:21   #16
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this is one of the days when is better to stay away from BA livescore(especially when you lose too much betting money in past two days)because some of us, like me, dont like to see some members losing energy on anything what have nothing with betting or some friendly conversation/mood ...

is maybe some kind of solution to open topic with voting about Achiles destiny on BA forum, with referendum question, *should Achiles get permanent ban?* ? thats some kind of ****ing democracy solution...

then all of you can finally step away from your hardcore position....biggest problem is both od separate sides have a right, in my opinion...or someone mention, after these changes of rules(how i figured) maybe to reset previous bans or wtf i know, if moderators have good will( know they have) maybe is best solution topic with voting...
f.... english ....on my serbian, croatian, bosnian language i would tell all of this much prettiest to read...but all can understand what writer has to say i hope

best wishes...i'm done for today
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Old 15-02-12, 13:21   #17
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Quote:
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can i ask here q's about achi's ban?
You can ask, imo, because there is nothing to hide here... although it should be clear from the above-mentioned post.
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Old 15-02-12, 13:32   #18
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can we made a 2 livescore threads named 1)-ladies livescore -name say everythyng and 2) suburban livescore- were anyone before log in they sign a document according to which they agree to be insulted or provoked ?
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Old 15-02-12, 13:58   #19
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is maybe some kind of solution to open topic with voting about Achiles destiny on BA forum, with referendum question, *should Achiles get permanent ban?* ? thats some kind of ****ing democracy solution...
Sorry, but that's impossible. If Achilles ban will ever be lifted it'll be a matter between him and moderators, popular demand will play no role here.

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can we made a 2 livescore threads named 1)-ladies livescore -name say everythyng and 2) suburban livescore- were anyone before log in they sign a document according to which they agree to be insulted or provoked ?
If this is a serious question then the answer is no, Bettingadvice has to mantain some standards. I'm sure there is plenty of other forums where you can insult people, 4chan or something.
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Old 15-02-12, 14:10   #20
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As I said earlier, rules are ok and yet they're misinterpreted right away because members need to adapt, look at the cleansing it caused. Also the problem is what kind of power brings this to administration, I'm afraid that they'll ban and edit (which is super annoying) all over the place. Like shicne said they can take sides and still use the rules as an excuse.

Also some people posted here for so long that they developed their own styles of writing like Lokorus, it's simply not fair to expect from them that they'll become polite and all flowers over night. I don't mind posts filled with stars and a few fuc*s and shi*s here and there. We're adults after all (betting isn't for minors anyway ).


Quote:
1) strong insults directed at players or nations
2) racism
3) any other remarks that are in extremely bad taste(death wishes etc.)
4) ridiculous, excessive cursing
So this are good but how do two moderators define excessive cursing?

First 3 points yes, last 4th point over time as I understand that it's sometimes soothing to let out the frustration because of a lost bet through a starry sky and I don't know who in the betting world would mind that.

Also I would still like to ask if you could at least consider of unbanning certain members and apply this rules from there on.

Last edited by Morbius; 15-02-12 at 14:13.
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Old 15-02-12, 14:26   #21
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So this are good but how do two moderators define excessive cursing?
No one said cursing won't be allowed anymore in the livescore thread, because we all agree that sometimes it's good for letting off steam, especially after losing a bet, thus some (or a lot of) money.

But there should be a line drawn between the manner of cursing and the frequency. For example, we had/have members like yves or le_celtics, who only posted to curse someone, a lot of times taking that to the extreme, with racism, death wishes, etc. That's excessive!
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Old 15-02-12, 14:39   #22
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I have had to be away from the BA forum for personal reasons and now for the few weeks that I have been back trying to read and catch up with the updates I'm totally surprised how the forum looks different compared to the previous one that I could recall.

Well, honestly being not-so-active like some other members here (like Achilles for instance), I still want to share my humble opinion regarding the discussion. More the word 'democracy' I hear our admins have been using the more it sticks in my mind. I agree that BA used to be a democratic forum, but these last steps really don't help it.

In democracies, any given legislation, either newly created or updated, is put into force after a transition period during which the community is by any possible means informed about the probable outcomes of probable acts after the new/updated rules shall begin to apply. I mean not like just changing the subject of the livescore thread and asking people to read the rules update.

Furthermore, in democracies people are given/let some specific time to adapt/adjust themselves to the new/updated rules. Rules that have already existed but not highly been practiced due to lenient approach does not mean that everyone should be aware of them and their outcomes already, or immediately.

But these are valid for democratic environments so you can all forget about it. BA in my opinion should have other priorities rather than the livescore section.
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Old 15-02-12, 14:45   #23
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Hmm, some heavy changes here too, so i guess, the end of the world is really close, new world order also on internet...

Livescore was one of the threads on this forum, that let people to say some words on current event, even some curse now and then, ... even to write some plain picks...

In such way, livescore will be more or less empty. Some very important (in my eyes) users of this forum were already banned, some are leaving, and that's bad. I don't know whom suits these. But hey, that's just my opinion.

I can't agree with all these dictatorship here, but that's again just my opinion.
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Old 15-02-12, 15:11   #24
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Reading this thread I understand that at that moment when Achilles got banned racism was not against the rules and only the new rules would incriminate him. False. I recall even more important contributor (now moderator) banned for racism before because rules are rules for everyone.

On topic: I am not the best person to tell you how to do your job with this "cleaning operation" (since I am not really the most friendly user of bettingadvice) but I would like to suggest you to make sure that moderators share your view about how things have to look on that thread because cg (almost retired) and arsenalno1 won`t be able to handle alone 24/7 all the shits might happen there. And if moderators would let people get away with bullshits you`ll get another saga "My friend got unfair ban, I will go to ECHR, please unban him and lets erase the past".
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Old 16-02-12, 11:21   #25
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why I was banned ? who banned me ?

is it so hard to write your names and reasons ?

why i wasn't warn before or something ?

someone said he is feeling communist title as an insult but what are you doing ?
you can write & rewrite how much rules you want but you will stay same mugs here..

Where were you when all the thing started ? where were you ?

arbiter something

arsenal something

dj something ?
you left CG to clear the mess and you were calm witnesses. watching but never had the cojones to start and clear the mess.

Can someone of you mods/fake mods and admins to say why CG left ?

Can some mods here say why this is coming right now ?

You left so many questions without answer and all you made is the mess that will follow and really healthy members of this community felt wounded by your behaviour.
Some fake warriors like arsenal something who was unactive years are coming like ninjas here out of nowhere...

Don't you have shame guys , mods ? being unactive so many years...just feel free to take off your mod's title, but nah...you're as much insolent as the neighbour cat.
I will not waste much time as i don't feel you deserve an intelligent person like me to discuss all these things which are obvious. You will just stay as average multi-waste eyes handicapped horses.
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Old 16-02-12, 12:02   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beretta View Post
Can someone of you mods/fake mods and admins to say why CG left ?
I left because although I agree with the rules starting to be enforced, i dont agree with the way they have been implemented.
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Old 16-02-12, 12:25   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beretta View Post
why I was banned ? who banned me ?

is it so hard to write your names and reasons ?
There was no reason written in fact, which is a mistake by moderator. Sorry for that. AFAIK it was for a racist remark.

Quote:
Originally Posted by beretta View Post
why i wasn't warn before or something ?
You were already banned at least 5 times, every time by different moderator. Warned I don't know how many times.

Quote:
Originally Posted by beretta View Post
Can some mods here say why this is coming right now ?
Problems with livescore go back to the very way it was created, there were some previous attempts to clear the insults/fight/racism(even 2005: http://forum.bettingadvice.com/showthread.php?t=5147), it's just another.
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Old 16-02-12, 13:42   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve C View Post
I left because although I agree with the rules starting to be enforced, i dont agree with the way they have been implemented.
Appreciate it a lot!!!
With this move they are literally jammed in the sludge!
IMO, current management: Arsenal, DJ, Arbiter and big part of the mods have no capacity to run this site...
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Old 16-02-12, 14:04   #29
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wasnt done for you, Achilles, or anyone else on here but myself........and they can/will run it, just gonna be a few teething problems along the way.
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Old 16-02-12, 14:14   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve C View Post
wasnt done for you, Achilles, or anyone else on here but myself........and they can/will run it, just gonna be a few teething problems along the way.
I didn't say you did it for anyone... just appreciate it as a decision by man with principles...
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